ooc: Remus/Sirius reasonings and my take on the 'ship.

[worldfromafar]

After being questioned about my 'ship after a friend of mine had asked me just why already, I decided to write this out. It's basically my reasonings behind being a supporter of Remus/Sirius. I'm also a supporter of Remus/Tonks, of course, but since that's canon I never get any WTF? expressions or questions.

Anyway, a version of this I'm going to email to her because I said I would but I figured me posting this version here wouldn't be a bad idea either. I was just going to leave it in my mun journal, but since Remus is being played as bi/gay here then it doesn't hurt, right?

I'm cutting for length 'cause haha I seriously have the same issues Remus has with rambling sometimes. >.>

Before starting to roleplay within the fandom, I always tried to steer clear of the Harry Potter 'shippers because some are either very creepy or vicious when it comes to their 'ships. I guess it's ironic I'm saying that since I'm dedicating all this time to write an explanation in this 'ship as well but I hope it doesn't quite fall in either one of those categories. >.> But if I'm writing this out it's so I can organize my thoughts better, so off we go.

As you know, I started to get into the HP fandom until Half-Blood Prince came out. That was the first hard-cover book of the series I bought, which is how I know the timing. So me, being the BIG HP fan? Not really. When my online friends would squee about whoever I'd listen, but I never let those squees steer me towards liking someone/something, let alone 'ships. I'm picky about that sort of thing, because they have to work for me in order to actually support them, you know? I like to make these decisions on my own.

'Canon references':

In Prisoner of Azkaban we met a Remus Lupin who tries to more or less put some distance between himself and other people. He's friendly with Harry, but he doesn't immediately make it known to him that he knew his parents and had been best friends with them. Twelve years of him being on his own probably did that, along with a certain guilt that he left the poor kid on his own while he mourned. Or tried to ignore/outrun the grief he felt, take your pick. My point is, Remus is the quiet professor that always has a polite smile even to the ones that could very well irritate him. Examples: Snape and Peeves. His tone tends to remain neutral, as well as his reactions. There are glimpses of his humor, but for the most part neutrality is his thing.

Then Sirius gets brought up in a conversation with Harry, and the neutrality slips, which makes Lupin's briefcase slip from his hands in mid conversation. And sure, hearing the name of the person he believes killed his best friends is probably startling, but considering the amount of times the entire Wizarding world had been hearing that name, would it really take him by that much surprise when Harry brings him up? Emotions have to be strong for Remus to show it, and there are loads of unresolved issues between the two men so of course his emotions run deep enough for them to make him react when he's caught off guard.

Now, the hug... Yes, they "embraced like brothers," but as someone once pointed out, the narrator is not exactly reliable, is it? We hear how Harry feels, and how he interprets the looks and such of others, but that's it. And, sorry, but this quote makes me believe like it's going to lead to something else:

"Professor," Harry interrupted loudly, "what's going on--?"

But he never finished the question, because what he saw made his voice die in his throat. Lupin was lowering his wand, gazing fixedly at Black. The Professor walked to Black's side, seized his wand, pulled him to his feet so that Crookshanks fell to the floor, and embraced Black like a brother.

...right. A hug. >.>

And okay, let's go with just the hug. They haven't seen each other in twelve years. The relief is there, and of course they embraced. Or, rather, Remus embraced Sirius when earlier he had trouble just reaching over to give Harry a squeeze of the shoulder to comfort him when he told him about the dementors. Remus is just not the affectionate type of guy, yet he initiates the embrace. In the movie there's even a bigger sign of something else lurking beneath the surface at the way they hug each other even before Remus finds out the whole story.

Even after their reunion at the shack, though, things aren't really resolved because how do you resolve twelve years (thirteen if you count the year when they must have doubted each other) in a few minutes and with the children and Peter in the room? Obviously we don't know how/if they resolved things at all since the books cover Harry's quest, but at one point in GoF Sirius moves in with Remus. Living together must have given them a chance to at least fix some of that gap that separated them in order to live together without suffocating each other. I can't claim what things they did/didn't do 'cause, well, this is all my theory, but I believe they must have rekindled their relationship enough for them to be comfortable around each other. Comfortable enough for Remus to move in with Sirius when he goes to Grimmauld.

So this moves us on to OotP. Remus is living with Sirius in Grimmauld. Yeah, Sirius is depressed and having trouble coping with being cooped up, but Remus himself is leaving on missions for the Order so Sirius is often alone in that house he despises so much. And let's face it, no matter how deep their feelings for each other could be, Sirius isn't the type to stay at home and wait; especially after being locked up for so many years. He's the independent type, and having to stay back and watch while Harry is in danger must have been torture. Remus must have tried his best to make things easier for him, but we also know that one person cannot be everything for someone else no matter how much you may love them. And Remus gets this, of course. He can't 'fix' Sirius or make things better how he wants to because Sirius couldn't 'fix' him or make things better when things were crappy for him in the past either.

In OotP we also see a change in Remus. His personality seems to have strengthened, and when Sirius starts arguing with Molly he's 'forceful' enough to raise his voice and make Sirius settle down. This, in my opinion, is one of my biggest signs that what they mean to each other is so much stronger and deeper than it's let on. We all have friends that complement us, sure, but for them they just...match. They complement each other. Sirius' temper gets the best of him but Remus knows how to calm him down at once. And Remus, no matter how quiet he may be, around Sirius there's a shift in his personality. He seems more comfortable to speak out and talk and take charge because, I believe, Sirius gives him a confidence that he often lacks. Why? Well... If Sirius accepted Remus despite his 'Dark creature' status, became an animagus to keep him company, and is one of the four people that first showed him what unconditional love was, then Remus knows he can be himself without worrying that Sirius is going to judge him. Which, of course, gives Remus that confidence I mentioned. He's such a Pisces and how he'd rather avoid conflict if he can, but when the argument between Molly and Sirius flares, Remus is the one that throws himself in the middle of it and makes Sirius sit back down. Again, we don't get a real glimpse into how their life at Grimmauld is like when they're alone, but - again - this is Harry's story.

When Sirius goes through the veil, Remus shatters. Completely and utterly shatters. The emotion is palpable, when we know just how hard it is for him to really display any signs of what he's feeling. But his voice breaks, and his voice "sounded as though every word was causing him pain." Sirius is gone but this time he knows (or believes) that Sirius cannot come back or escape like he did from Azkaban. I truly believe that, if it hadn't been for Harry, he would have actually gone through the veil himself with him. The only reason he stopped it was because he had to stop Harry from doing the same. Harry, Sirius and Remus had each other as their family and for them to lose him, and to witness it breaks them both in thousands of little pieces that, honestly, they can't put together. We know for sure that Harry has trouble coming to grips with it because of what is said in HBP. And Remus, at the end of OotP, he's already back to being the quiet one. Also, for Remus, while I do agree that part of why he looks and acts the way he does in HBP is because of how confused he is about Tonks' feelings for him,he's just like a fish out of water again. He spent a year and a half or so with Sirius, back to being who he had once been (or at least close enough to it) and to lose him was horrible. He lost his best friend. He lost the only person that truly knows him because of how long they had known each other and were, more or less, each other's lifelines ever since they were teenagers.

Now, if Remus and Sirius really had been together, why did Molly and Arthur (and everyone else that may have done it but I'm not remembering) insist so much on him and Tonks hooking up, right? This is the part where I point out how they would have been a homosexual couple in the 70s-80s. Plus Remus is a very, very private person and that is proven when the argument at the hospital wing happens after Dumbledore dies. Remus looks/feels obviously uncomfortable at the outburst and looks like he wants the floor to swallow him up. So him and Sirius outing themselves... I don't know. I find that hard to believe, actually. I'm sure others would have seen hints of it, but I doubt a lot of people knew for sure unless the boys confided in them.


Personal views on this:

...well this is all my personal view, I guess? But my personal reasons for liking them are simple, and why I have no problems writing Remus as gay/bi:

* They know each other since they were teens. For Remus it's his first love, because Sirius is one of the rare few that managed to break down his walls to get to his heart. And there's just something about that first love, isn't there?

* They get each other and complement each other so well. They just fit together. Both find shelter in their group of friend, but to each other they are also incredibly important as well.

* They are not perfect. At all. Either one of them, and they each made mistakes. Sirius was about to feed Severus to Moony, which is something Remus would have been furious and devastated about. But, let's face it: teenage boys are not exactly the most mature creatures in the world. Sirius would fall into this category at that time, and in a hot-headed moment then he told Severus to go to the shack. But Sirius and Remus continue being friends afterwards, so Remus obviously forgave him. At least enough to not break ties completely. Then there's also the fact that they each doubted each other; Sirius believed Remus was the traitor and Remus believed Sirius had gotten James, Lily and Peter killed. But they were in a time of war, Remus has always been the secretive one and Peter would have surely used this fact to turn people against Remus without a problem. Hell, I honestly believe Remus made it VERY easy for Peter to do that. Fast forward to twelve years later and they're older and weary, but they go back to complementing each other and being together despite it all. In other words, their love would have been strong enough for them to say "Okay, you're flawed, I'm flawed; we fucked up but what we have is not something we can just throw away this easily."

I don't play Remus as bi in most communities and completely gay in au_muses because I'm a big fan of slash. I don't mind reading slash when it's done well, but I had never ever written a slashy character at all. Curious, sure, but never someone who had actually been in a relationship with a man (or a girl with another girl) before. And maybe I'm among the few that does this, but I never set their sexuality according to my personal preference. I wait to get a 'vibe' of what their sexuality is. With Remus, when I first started writing him, I actually wasn't sure what to expect and I refused to let others influence me in writing him a certain way. And it didn't take long for me to get that 'vibe,' actually. He's at least bisexual. David Thewlis himself has said he believed he was the one that with the role of the gay wizard. True, he has said he hasn't really read the books but I'm guessing the director must have and Thewlis has also claimed that even the director agreed that Lupin was gay.

The reason I hate hate hate the "But it's not in the books!" reasoning is that that's not really a reason to rule out the possibility of Remus/Sirius. It's not in the books that Remus did fall in love with Tonks either, so is that not true then? It's not in the books that Dumbledore is gay, either, and it wasn't until JKR confirmed it. So, basically, unless you're JKR and tell me it's not possible for the two to have been in a relationship before Remus/Tonks got together, then the "it's not in the books" reasoning isn't valid. (And if JKR did in fact tell me that, I'd question other pairings that, frankly, make a lot less sense than the possible R/S >.> )

Does this mean I don't believe that Tonks and Remus could have actually fallen in love? No. But it's hard for me to believe that at thirty-seven Remus wouldn't have been in love with someone else. And since he's so picky on who he lets into his heart, can anyone REALLY see him trusting a complete stranger when he despises being shunned when they find out what he is even if he claims he's "used to it" as he says? So I'm not saying Tonks/Remus isn't possible but, frankly, I see more proof for R/S than we get for R/T. To me, and I really really do not mean to offend anyone with this, R/T got sloppily thrown together. In HBP it all started well, and I actually would've believed it if JKR would have devoted at least a page to their relationship, but we get paragraphs instead throughout DH. They go from holding hands and Remus barely coming to terms with his relationship with Tonks, but then they're married in the first few pages of DH and the mind just boggles a little. :X

Even with that, and how I believe that Tonks and Remus' relationship didn't get the explanation it deserved, I am actually a supporter of both. Really, I am. ...okay, my mun journal may reflect something else at the moment but that's me having fun with two pictures that I fell in love with. If I wrote this whole thing out it's because the 'ship has been questioned one too many times and the only reasoning I keep hearing is "but it's not in the books!"

Yes, well. Let me ask you something. Is a character not gay just because JKR didn't say "Professor Lupin, the gay werewolf, taught Harry Potter how to cast a patronus"? What is our proof that a character is straight, anyway? We all saw the reaction when Dumbledore was 'exposed' so are we really that surprised that Jo hasn't outed anyone else yet?

I'll respect any 'ship that may not make much sense to me, and it may make me cringe when it's adult-father-figures/Harry but I'm not going to flip on someone for it. I just expect the same curtesy to be extended, you know? That's why I really don't understand 'ship wars; we all have different perspectives and views and perceptions to things, so it'd be so much easier to just respect those differences and boundaries, and if there's a disagreement then disagree without flaming.

That said, I'd actually love to hear other people's thoughts on this. Neutral ground. Like I said, I don't involve myself in 'ship wars so I'm not going to unfriend anyone/be offended if you don't agree with me. If I missed something too, please let me know 'cause I wrote it at work without the books (except for PoA 'cause I left that there a few weeks ago >.> ). Just please don't use the "it's not in the books" reasoning, that is all I ask. ;)

<3,
Remus!mun

Comments

Personally?

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Remus and Sirius is canon. At the same time, I don't think that it's not canon.

I hate what JK did to Tonks post HP-OoTP. It's why I play most of my Tonks pre-HBP. I just hate it. I cannot except that it was just Remus that made her loose her morphing powers.

1. There's a war going on it and it's starting to get even more serious and during that summer more people were dying, like Order members.

2. Survivor's guilt at Sirius dying. They may have not known each other long but I like to believe that Remus and Tonks were at least friends during OoTP and as Sirius is Remus' best friend (whatever your views on his gayness or not), I imagine that she would feel guilt at not taking out Bellatrix before Bellatrix could take out Sirius out.

3. Stress.

4. If I'm going to ship Remus with Tonks, they have to have hooked up during OoTP because that's the only way it makes sense in my head for her characterization.

You hate ship-wars? Trying playing Tonks when HBP first came out. I got 'teh haet'.

The sad part is that Remus/Tonks doesn't have to sink anyone's ship.

Re: Personally? Pt 2.

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

And I hate what JK did to Remus and Tonks in her characterization of their relationship.

There was nothing ever detailed about it.

As much as I wanted it, after reading OoTP, I was extremely dissapointed with the way that it was handled. I expected more.

We got nothing.

Which is why I like playing my Tonks set in OoTP. She's fun. She's carefree. She can shag anyone she wants. :D

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

Oi, I can't imagine what that must have been like, having to face the rabid 'shippers. :X And I totally agree with you. JKR let the portrayal of Tonks go down the drain so easily, when she had so much freakin' potential, and she gave Tonks so much strength and spunk in OotP then made her lose it over a guy? It just doesn't stick with me, so I totally do not blame you for writing Tonks in OotP instead.

And I agree as well, on Remus and Tonks being friends during OotP because I can't imagine Remus hooking up with someone later that he barely knows either. So he would have started to trust her at some point early on, you know? And like I said, I 'ship both, so I look for possibilities for both as well. Like, yeah even if in my head I imagine Remus and Sirius together, Remus would have started to feel something for Tonks as well because Sirius also kept to himself a lot while at Grimmauld so (in my opinion) Tonks and Remus got to get to know each other as well.

Heh, and you know, the 'argument' that Tonks is to "blame" for sinking the Sirius/Remus 'ship makes me laugh. Sirius is dead. Personally, I'd blame death for sinking that particular 'ship and not Tonks, who had nothing to do with it, but hey. >.>

comment hijacks

[sayshisname.livejournal.com]

You know I hated what she did to Tonks too. She took this hella cool strong character and turned her into "the lovesick chick" and it was insulting. I can't imagine how tough it was for you to write her back then cause I know fandom can be harsh when things don't go there way. Hell, I threw DH against a wall more than once and that was before I even got to the Lily and Sev crap.

I agree though. I don't think she could have just been lovesick and that is all that was going on. It blows that Jo basically turned her into the girl and had her lose what made her so awesome. But I love teh Dora and I choose to have my own views on what has her that way. They actually pretty much line up with your views.

And word on Remus/Tonks not having to sink anyone's ship. But then, if people are creative? No pairing has to sink another pairing's ship. That is the beauty of writing in fandom.

Re: comment hijacks

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It was bad at first. I used to have four paragraphs of a typed response whenever someone would question me.

I was in this one RP that it's shtick was that it was set in the real world. It was fine. Most of the players were really good as far as the technical stuff was concerned. However, most of the muns were also assholes.

Anyway, the girl that played Remus gave him AIDS instead of lycanthropy which is fine. It's the route I would have gone but whatever. It fit with the game.

Well, the Saturday the book came out and before I could even finish it, she IMs me and tells me that she was sure that I was aware of how HPB turned out but there was no way that Remus and Tonks would be getting together.

I just love how she assumed that I would want to do that. Of course this same person also thinks that the History Channel doesn't answer the question of history. >_

Re: Personally?

[pinkhairedauror.livejournal.com]

I agree with all four.

1. Oh yes. And that also hits hard, because her first eight years were during the war. The wizarding community was sliding back to the fears and tensions she knew as a child. That's spooky.

2. YES. Oh yes. Absolutely and completely. I know Tonks in my head most definitely blames himself for not being good enough to stop Bellatrix and instead got pwned.

3. And she's a responsible witch, and takes on a herself to do a lot. - ... it's interesting how her skills don't get damaged - she can apparate, which is presumably hard, and do all her Auror and Order work all right... but it's her inborn ability that's lost. Stress? Hell yeah.

4. In my view, it was cooked up during OotP because it didn't just happen out of the blue - but it wasn't spoken about till the very end, probably past the Battle at the Department of Mysteries. And then with both of them grieving, it wasn't a conversation that was intended to be that, it just... went that way. FAR that way. But - Remus is a very private person, whatever he was feeling, he'd not be easy to let on. Tonks isn't - but she's very strong on empathy, and she knows that... something like that might discomfit somebody like Remus, hard.

and, my addition.

5. Extreme worry FOR Remus. Physically and emotionally. Obviously he's on dangerous missions; but also, he's LOST his last friend - over a year, she's had the opportunity to observe what Sirius and Remus mean to each other - whatever their relationship precisely, it was deep. And then Remus is taken away from the few people who will feel for him, and thrust out to being alone, separate, just as he's been in the years before PoA.
She may be terribly upset at his rejecting her. But I think she was at least as upset because of how terribly alone he is. At least in my head, that's the way she is.

And also, I don't think she lost her abilities as a 'snap, he said no and they are gone'. It took a while; it took many no's, and it was gradual. And it had its consequences.

Re: Personally?

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

D'oh! I forgot about Remus being in mortal peril for the better part of HBP. >_< That was part of my reasoning too.

[sayshisname.livejournal.com]

You already know I feel. JK SUCKS at writing romantic relationships. They seem to be an after thought most of the time. Her focus isn't on romantic relationships because like you said, it's Harry's story. The focus is on what is going on with Harry and the obstacles he faces along the way. I personally felt Remus/Tonks was so random. I hissed when I saw Lily/Sev's background cause it just took so much away from the character of Severus to me and I wanted to smack her cause it was obviously done to try and make Sev seem more sympathetic, but really it didn't need to be done that way. I also knew that fangirls were going to make me want to strangle them by their take on OMG LILY EVANS NEVER LOVED JAMES POTTER SHE WAS ALL ABOUT SEVERUS. HEART HEART HEART SEVERUS IS THE ROMANTIC HERO AND JAMES WAS A HORRIBLE PERSON. Cause ya know case in point, one was a prat as a teenager but grew up to be a good husband and father, and the other got her and James killed. But yes, let's completely white wash their history cause we want to shag Severus Snape :D

I'm actually a very relaxed shipper because I'm usually down with anything. I think killmeinstead and the_iscariot demonstrate what Lily/Sev would really be like. Their is beauty and genuine depth and kindness there, and there is a shit load of dysfunction. That is the thing about HP man. It's like if you really want to say well Remus/Sirius isn't possible cause it wasn't in the books, but then you want to claim Remus is OOC when he leaves Tonks and the baby WHEN IT IS IN THE BOOKS. You can't take canon that way. You can't twist it to your liking to suit your needs and then use it against someone else when you don't agree with them.

I personally can't see Harry with many people. I. just. Can't. Harry/Draco Harry/Ron Harry/Hermione Harry/any father figure here all of it squicks me out. But it's my view of it. I don't knock anyone else for their view of it. I wasn't sure how Harry/Luna/Ced would work, but we went with it in an AU setting and hey go look it works for us as writers and that is all that matters. I just can't take canon straight from the horse's mouth when she makes random ass statements like Neville and Hannah Abbott got married. Draco married some random Slytherin chick we never really saw. It's like really dude? Well okay then, but in my mind Neville and Luna made cute babies and Draco and Pansy are dysfunction junction.

I really hate shipping wars because it's ridiculous. Anyone who writes in fandom is ooc to a degree cause the moment we step out of canon and write one original word we're doing our take on it. Your reasons for why Remus/Sirius work are a lot of the reasons they work for me too. I could give you a huge ass post about why I think they make more sense than a lot of canon pairings, but ultimately you are writing your take on Remus Lupin. Anyone who doesn't agree with it is free to write their take on him. That is why fandom is so fucking awesome.

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

You know, I actually liked the bith with ten-year old Lily and Severus. >_>

[sayshisname.livejournal.com]

They were cute as kids. My problem with the setting was as they got older and blah I just saw where it was going to go with fandom. Cause you know, James Potter is totally the villain in that triangle, not the guy who got them killed. I pegged it on the head too cause woo boy are their a ton of Lily/Sev shippers now, but it's not even that they are trying to write Lily, if that makes sense. It's more like oh hey redhead avatar so I can try and be with Sev cause ALWAYS, GOT IT, ALWAYS. Hehehe I'm a bit passionate about this. I blame the fact I write The Boy Who Lived to see his parents happily together in that mirror.

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

I don't think so much about shipping. But that scene just killed me with the kyooot! I can't help it.

DH just made me realize that JK is a fantastic storyteller but not a very good writer.

Everything else just got thrown in at random.

[pinkhairedauror.livejournal.com]

JK is a fantastic storyteller but not a very good writer.

Word, word, WORD!!!!

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

For me it's weird, in HBP I can actually see how Remus/Tonks get together, and I even squeed when I saw that they were holding hands in the end of the book. But then DH comes out and bam they're married and pregnant already? That part I just didn't get and it felt like an afterthought. And oi, yeah as it was pointed out JK should stick with stories and leave the romantic relationships to someone else because the only ones that really made sense in the end that she ended up putting together were Ginny/Harry and Ron/Hermione.

killmeinstead and the_iscariot were actually the ones that convinced me that Lily and Sev were worth reading, because I agree completely that the way JKR handled it was just...so bad. And she totally left it open for the fangirls to go head over heels over Sev/Lily and leave James in the dust, which is totally unfair. Yes we saw an immature James Potter in Sev's memories, but teenage boys aren't known for being mature, are they? And he obviously must have grown/matured with the war going on, so...oi.

Hehe and I can't imagine Harry with a lot of people either. I can see Harry/Cedric and Harry/Luna (which is why the AU setting makes me so happy too *g*), and now I love the Harry/Ginny, but other than that I just don't get it. But just because I don't get it it doesn't mean that I'm going to go around calling people on their crazy you know? 'cause hey, look at me, I'm a fan of a 'ship that seems crazy to others so what right would I have to do it?

And a big fat WORD on that last paragraph. Then again, you may not be surprised about that. ;)

[drghouse-md.livejournal.com]

Just butting in to say that I found DH to be extremely disappointing. I often refer to it as Harry Potter and Hallows of Fail.

While there were some good bits to it... there were a great deal of unimpressive bits to it, too. Such as Remus & Tonks married already and pregnant. And the fact that Voldemort died in three sentences. And not only died in three sentences, but died by an expelliarmus spell. And the fact that Harry survived an AK for the second time. And the fact that Remus died and it was barely even mentioned. And the fact that Harry randomly decided to hate Sirius just because he was mean to Kreacher. And the way Snape's entire character justification was rammed into one chapter at the very end of the book. And... and... and... NEED I GO ON? Lol.

I love Severus/Lily, however. But cannot stand how it was executed in the books.

Speaking of Harry, seeing you mentioned him being paired with people - I really love Remus/Harry, post-Hogwarts, where Harry is well and truly an adult. So, it would be extremely AU, especially now that Remus is dead. I have this entire universe created in my head of post-Hogwarts with an entire justification mapped out for the Remus/Harry. I may write it one day! I hate Remus/Harry Hogwarts era, though, as a ship. As in, where they're fucking, dkldfdfg. Ick. Squicky as hell. I can only tolerate it when they're friends in that era.

ooc

[abbytude.livejournal.com]

While I definitely don't consider them a canon pairing, I do think they can be made a justifiably believable pairing. There's enough evidence in canon to at least create the possibility.

Certainly enough plausibility for Remus to be bi-sexual/gay.

I think that's what makes Black/Lupin work as opposed to randomly shipping some characters. There is a case that can be made for it.

As for not being in the books, seeing as JKR has been revealing little tid bits here and there that are not in the books, I think HP canon is a little more flexible that way.

Re: ooc

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

Oh totally, in HP canon there's so many things that are unexplored (like the whole first war era and such) that it just leaves it open for interpretation.

"I think that's what makes Black/Lupin work as opposed to randomly shipping some characters. There is a case that can be made for it."

Exactly! And hey, I honestly don't blame people for not considering them canon. I mean, they could be, and if written properly I think the backstory could be portrayed in a way that is plausible, but sometimes people just take things way too far and start drama for things that shouldn't be THAT dramatic. And canon is always open for interpretation, depending on the reader/writer, which is the wonderful thing about it. *g*

[pinkhairedauror.livejournal.com]

Much, much, MUCH love!

You know my view already - I also love both 'ships. This is a beautiful take on things. And I agree, 'it's not in the books' is... ESPECIALLY in this case, is not relevant. A lot of things aren't in the books, but they can be interpreted as implied in the books - either of two opposite ways.

One thing FOR Remus? Unconditional love, from people with Black heritage? He's got it.

ETA.
More of my thoughts re Remus/Sirius. In the beginning. Teen hormones (no, I'm not belittling what they mean to each other. I just think that THAT added to the deeper stuff to push them between friends-who-mean-everything-to-each-other and more-than-just-friends).
The Marauders were particularly a LOT closer to each other than most boys who share a dorm. On levels that most teenagers don't reach.
And Sirius and Remus must have been brought closer by their canine OTHER form. It does matter, really - because the wolf is a part that Remus can not cast away from himself; and Pads is the only form Sirius can take - because that's who he is.
Also, they were at Hogwarts in the seventies. While it was a hard time for gay/bi people, it was also the time of the flower-children, a time when teenagers and early-twenties-people got a reach for liberties that included sexual - and so forth - stuff.

And I know these arguments are NOT canon (haha). But they are also built-in into the way canon is built; the way it's dated.

And about it rekindling after that? My guess is that it wouldn't have been easy, it wouldn't have been just kiss-up-and-be-fine-the-next-day, but it makes sense to me.

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

*bows* Thank you! Haha I was worried it'd make no sense since I rambled. >.>

I adore the Marauders because of that bond and how much more they meant to each other than any four boys that shared a dorm. James was an only child. Peter had some clingage issues and the boys made him part of the group. Sirius was the outcast of the Black family. And Remus, well, Mr Werewolf himself wouldn't have had it easy either. But they find each other and make their little family among the four of them, which is why Remus and Sirius are so willing to kill Peter; he betrayed family and that bond they shared.

*snicker* And yeah, my take on the pair is that teen hormones lead to probably experimenting. But it got deeper than that before they realized it. And Remus having to possibly face more judgment for being gay/bi when he had enough issues with being a werewolf? That's why I doubt they would have outed themselves at all. Remus, at least. Heh, and I try to date things in canon as much as I can and find out about the time period whenever I write about Remus' backstory. Because it's just built that way, I think, and it's impossible to ignore what was going on, y'know?

And about it rekindling after that? My guess is that it wouldn't have been easy, it wouldn't have been just kiss-up-and-be-fine-the-next-day, but it makes sense to me.

No, I highly doubt it would've been that easy. It was a big, big betrayal they each made towards each other, even if they would've been JUST friends. But I think the fact that Remus actually moved in with Sirius rather than staying wherever it was that they had been staying before (because Sirius had been sent to 'lay low at Lupin's') is a sign that obviously they must have reached a spot where they were comfortable enough again. And, you know, that possible conflict actually intrigues me a lot and how they must have worked things out.

[pinkhairedauror.livejournal.com]

... it makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is flaming, hatred, unwillingess to accept another PoV. You? Most of the time you say, THIS would be true if they're only friends, but I think it implies more. That approach just makes sense!!

*nods* Peter's betrayal was... frightening. I think that THAT dynamic was very well shown and implied in the books.

Haha that's why I said teen hormones are AN argument for me. You put it very well - they ... led to some experimenting. What with all the Marauders extremely clever (even if one is misguided and a traitor and a coward! ahem.) I do believe they'd also be questioning sexual 'norms' the way they are questioning 'social' ones (e.g., Sirius rejecting his family, Remus being shown that the rejection of werewolves is not as universal, etc., etc.)

<333
Eh. Both Remus and Sirius are characters who've been hurt very, very deeply. If nothing else, some sense of fairness in me pokes and says that if they could have found a bit of peace, a bit of a step closer to 'happy' in each other? OH yes, that's a right thing!

Why the bastard mun is not allowed cough sryup!!!

[someones-son.livejournal.com]

But it's not canon!!!!!!!


Why yes, I had to use this icon too, because you know, they're canon!

Hey at least you have an excuse 'cause I'm not on cough syrup???

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

D: I'M GOING TO GO TO MY CORNER OF THE INTERNET TO CRY NOW KTHX

Better RPing through Nyquil, that's my excuse!!!

[someones-son.livejournal.com]

That's right! Go over there and cry while I continue to write Harry/Hermione because they are so canon! Because you know, they talked!!! In the books. so Yeah!!!



It is in the books. You know that chapter Rowlings kept saying she couldn't find a place for in any of the books? Yeah, it's describing Braxas and Sev....

Wow...you know...my head hurts now.

Re: Hey at least you have an excuse 'cause I'm not on cough syrup???

[likeaparfet.livejournal.com]

Don't cry! I shall write Snape/Tonks in retribution! :D :D :D

Re: Hey at least you have an excuse 'cause I'm not on cough syrup???

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

LMFAO that totally works XD

sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[drghouse-md.livejournal.com]

I always tried to steer clear of the Harry Potter 'shippers because some are either very creepy or vicious when it comes to their 'ships.

*Exactly* the same for the House fandom. So much asshattery goes on, so much wank, so much fighting over whose ship is the "right" ship. When in actuality, none of the ships on the show are actually canon, so people are actually fighting over fantasies.

That aside, though, you've written a great essay/post here about your thoughts on Remus/Sirius. I, too, love Remus/Sirius for pretty much all the reasons you've mentioned. Do I think it's actually canon? Well, who cares if it is or isn't? It's never explicitly stated either way, so it can be taken either way.

I'm with you in that I'm not generally a slasher, though I have the same kind of approach towards House/Wilson that you have with Remus/Sirius. Don't know if you watch House, but he was in a very serious relationship with a woman for five years. The relationship ended. The person who stuck by him was Wilson and Wilson said in canon that he picked up the pieces. So much can be read into that. I don't play House gay and I don't play him bi, but I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of House/Wilson because it makes a lot of sense on certain levels.

So... I don't know if my rambling equates to telling you my thoughts on Remus/Sirius but I hope it does! I've read through a number of Remus' entries and I like how you write him. He's my favourite character in the entire Harry Potter series.

I found my way here, btw, through justprompts. Just so you don't think, "Who is that person and why are they randomly commenting on my Remus lj?". Lol. :-)

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

Hehe, you know, I've actually seen the asshattery you mentioned and yeah, I totally agree that it's just pointless to make such a big deal about who likes who. >.> It's crazy when fandom gets that way.

I have watched House (a version of the muse got me interested on the show and I've watched it ever since *g*) and even if I'm not a big slasher, I also get the House/Wilson vibes. House/Wilson really is like Remus/Sirius; maybe it's not said that it's officially canon but the possibility is always there. There's nothing wrong with exploring it if the writer of the muse feels like it.

Hee, I really don't mind comments out of nowhere! :D If anything, thank you for being interested enough in reading this and his other entries. I'm very, very flattered that you think I write him well when he's your favorite character. *g*

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[drghouse-md.livejournal.com]

There's nothing wrong with exploring it if the writer of the muse feels like it.

There's nothing wrong with ANYTHING when it comes to fanon. The whole point of fandom is to enjoy whatever you want to enjoy and people have no right to frown upon other people's shipping choices. *They* certainly don't like it when *their* shipping choices come under fire.

It's awesome a person who wrote a character from the show got you interested. That demonstrates good writing and imagination. :-) And yeah - I'm way more interested in House/Cuddy and House/Stacy but I also love to explore the possibilities of 'what if' regarding House/Wilson. Why tie yourself to one pairing when there is so much other stuff out there to explore?

Hee. You're welcome. :-)

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

The whole point of fandom is to enjoy whatever you want to enjoy and people have no right to frown upon other people's shipping choices. *They* certainly don't like it when *their* shipping choices come under fire.

So, SO true. Because it's as simple enough as closing the browser or going back a page or two rather than flaming.

Why tie yourself to one pairing when there is so much other stuff out there to explore?

Exactly! Especially when the writer/creator of something can't possibly create a whole timeline (well, usually) that tells us exactly what happens. If anything, that's where the challenge for the fandom writers comes in.

:D Would you mind if I friend you/House?

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[drghouse-md.livejournal.com]

If anything, that's where the challenge for the fandom writers comes in.

Precisely. But then you get the issue of people in fandom who create these universes in fanon thinking they then have some kind of entitlement over canon. The thing in the House fandom: House/Cameron fans believe David Shore, the creator of the show, owe them House/Cameron. H/W fans believe the show owes them H/W. Members of both shipping parties have "threatened" to boycott the show if they don't get what they want. a) how does a tiny plethora of idiots boycotting a show out of so called spite change anything, and b) sorry, but the show simply doesn't belong to them.

Argh, this is an issue I can bitch about for weeks, haha. I just can't stand some shipper's attitudes towards pairings and the like. Because THEN you get some who are of the opinion that all female characters are enemies of slash! Wtfff. I'm not in the HP fandom even though I am a fan of HP, but I'm pretty sure that kind of attitude was rampant when Remus/Tonks became canon.

Would you mind if I friend you/House?

Not at all! *friends you back*

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[r-moony.livejournal.com]

*snicker* You can bitch about it if you want, I don't mind and I totally understand where you're coming from. XD Yeah, from what I have seen extreme HP fans are the same and I can't stand that. I'm a fan, and I write, but I don't let myself get so involved with something that by default I'll dislike someone because of a 'ship choice.

Ha, and for the record, the House fandom reminds me so so much of the ER fandom sometimes. That's really the one I was somewhat involved with but, again, not the crazy type of involvement. ;) I've always tried to keep myself at a safe distance from the crazy fans, but back when ER was popular there was a "war" between the supporters of two 'ships (Luka/Abby and Carter/Abby) and that would get insane. Along with all the "OMG I'LL STOP WATCHING NOW" moments. It's amazing (and not in the good way at all) that people take something that's supposed to be fun so seriously.

Woo! :D <3

Re: sigh. i wish free accounts came with the edit option, too

[drghouse-md.livejournal.com]

people take something that's supposed to be fun so seriously

Of course. It's the solution to climate change and all those other perils of the world, didn't you know?

;-)